holding out for a hero
May. 28th, 2012 10:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
serynIn response to my post about superheroes, Sche... (that's actually unique enough on my reading list and my spelling brain is offline) suggested the graphic novel Batman: Under The Red Hood. I got that from the library and found it to be very enjoyable despite the graphic novel format which I dislike.
Then there was this:
The discussion, from my end, had been originally about how we expect the good guys not to kill people and how I disagreed with that but still found myself disliking the gray area "almost heroes" I was told to dislike for their lack of moral conviction.
The Young Justice new series seems to have a lot less of the hard and fast division between good people and bad people. I liked how in the original YJ (the new one is :I something) Superboy can't get Superman to talk to him because Superman is kind of a dick about it--- for good reasons, Superboy is a clone from stolen genetic material. But we've had almost a century of Superman is the good and righteous hero... so seeing him refuse to stand up for his offspring (unintended or not... men can be surprised about having offspring without being superhero aliens and even when they weren't told, society still thinks of them as poor role models for failing in their responsibilities) really undermined that holier than thou attitude.
A lot of the original superhero stuff, like 70s era Superfriends, had "good people" and "people who need to be reformed". Good people were the ones the Superfriends helped. Then there were the supervillains who, if they just understood how they were hurting the good people by their selfishness, could be transformed into good people themselves. No one was ever angry or unhappy for no reason. There weren't neutral people who had more children than they could afford to feed and who needed to beat them but only within the bounds of acceptable societal punishment--- even though 30 years later, the same behavior is considered sadistic and monstrous and today's children are really horribly behaved in my experience because the parents have no actually negative consequences they can turn to. Good people were helped. And if bad things were happening, heroes would show up and help you. Even with a minor problem like being too reckless. But the heroes wouldn't just slaughter the people causing the problem, they'd be taught better and everything would work out. Because the heroes would clear things up properly so the person having the problem didn't have to feel guilty for wanting it to stop.
But now that I'm old, I don't like this idea that people are inherently "good". I also don't like the idea that people who deliberately harm others aren't ever taken to task for it.
I hated Batman in Under The Red Hood for claiming it would be "too damned easy" to kill the Joker. I understand that if you're an addict, you can't have a taste of your addiction and then stop. But the Joker needed killing and Batman could have not saved him, which isn't the same thing. Or let one of the other villains take Joker out. Batman insisting that Red Hood not kill is like living with an alcoholic who won't let you have a beer when you've gone out for pizza with friends and left them at home. (Assuming you're not driving, don't live somewhere it's illegal, and don't have a medical reason not to consume alcohol... exactly where do they get off?) It's a bit weird to say that because it's generally accepted that killing people is wrong but having a beer is not... but Batman does act like an addict who can't even be around his vice, but can't stay away from people who are immersed in it.
Then there was this:
The discussion, from my end, had been originally about how we expect the good guys not to kill people and how I disagreed with that but still found myself disliking the gray area "almost heroes" I was told to dislike for their lack of moral conviction.
The Young Justice new series seems to have a lot less of the hard and fast division between good people and bad people. I liked how in the original YJ (the new one is :I something) Superboy can't get Superman to talk to him because Superman is kind of a dick about it--- for good reasons, Superboy is a clone from stolen genetic material. But we've had almost a century of Superman is the good and righteous hero... so seeing him refuse to stand up for his offspring (unintended or not... men can be surprised about having offspring without being superhero aliens and even when they weren't told, society still thinks of them as poor role models for failing in their responsibilities) really undermined that holier than thou attitude.
A lot of the original superhero stuff, like 70s era Superfriends, had "good people" and "people who need to be reformed". Good people were the ones the Superfriends helped. Then there were the supervillains who, if they just understood how they were hurting the good people by their selfishness, could be transformed into good people themselves. No one was ever angry or unhappy for no reason. There weren't neutral people who had more children than they could afford to feed and who needed to beat them but only within the bounds of acceptable societal punishment--- even though 30 years later, the same behavior is considered sadistic and monstrous and today's children are really horribly behaved in my experience because the parents have no actually negative consequences they can turn to. Good people were helped. And if bad things were happening, heroes would show up and help you. Even with a minor problem like being too reckless. But the heroes wouldn't just slaughter the people causing the problem, they'd be taught better and everything would work out. Because the heroes would clear things up properly so the person having the problem didn't have to feel guilty for wanting it to stop.
But now that I'm old, I don't like this idea that people are inherently "good". I also don't like the idea that people who deliberately harm others aren't ever taken to task for it.
I hated Batman in Under The Red Hood for claiming it would be "too damned easy" to kill the Joker. I understand that if you're an addict, you can't have a taste of your addiction and then stop. But the Joker needed killing and Batman could have not saved him, which isn't the same thing. Or let one of the other villains take Joker out. Batman insisting that Red Hood not kill is like living with an alcoholic who won't let you have a beer when you've gone out for pizza with friends and left them at home. (Assuming you're not driving, don't live somewhere it's illegal, and don't have a medical reason not to consume alcohol... exactly where do they get off?) It's a bit weird to say that because it's generally accepted that killing people is wrong but having a beer is not... but Batman does act like an addict who can't even be around his vice, but can't stay away from people who are immersed in it.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-30 02:06 am (UTC)Or were you only speaking metaphorically? If so - oops. ;-)
People and inherent good. I mostly fell on the side that they were even as I heard the clanging in the back as my head while the names ticked down the list of those famous folk who were so obviously bad. So for now I've come to this: "People inherently have the potential to be good. Some motherfuckers squash that potential to nothingness. Those people are bad."
no subject
Date: 2012-05-30 02:28 am (UTC)And this made sense because the Superfriends only helped good people. But it also didn't make sense because the Superfriends didn't hurt the "bad" people.
But the point of the topic was really that I've realized my definition of heroism has changed, and even my definition of superheroism has changed. Batman letting Joker "kill" Robin twice in the same graphic novel, and then pulling the Joker's unconscious ass out of the exploding building... that was wrong. You don't save the villain instead of your friends. You save your friends, and if you're an ostensibly "good" person, you bemoan your inability to do miracles or to save everyone. So Batman saying it would have been "too easy" to kill Joker, sure, I can sort of see that he'd really lose it if he started killing... but he didn't need to pull Joker from the exploding building when he could have used that time to save Robin instead. Yeah?
I think there are people who have done things that cannot be undone which permanently damage other people and there's no reason to bend over backward to help those people until they're really truly fucking sorry.
My mother did not get a free pass during her Nth step of AA when she asked for my forgiveness... but didn't even bother to promise not to do those things again. She didn't even say, "Sorry." So when there were planes flying into buildings and every single news item was a friend or relative bemoaning how horrible it was that such a good person had died so tragically. I finally realized that I should have submitted a list of people. Then the America-haters could have slaughtered Americans and television wouldn't have been disrupted because everyone would have been, "Eh. Whatever." If they'd waited until my birth family had been flying somewhere, I'd have sent roses.
Everyone thought Aquaman was sort of useless. But he was big and always stood akimbo. Like he'd physically intercede. My problems weren't so bad that I needed even the Wonder Twins... I'd have been okay with Aquaman. But I did obviously need a superhero since no one without special powers did anything to help.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-30 03:13 am (UTC)Batman not letting Joker die is in and out of character and most likely fear of fewer sequels than anything. I really do not know the superhero crowd and Aquaman only sounds vaguely familiar. I am sure you did not a superhero and regular one is not enough and humans rarely are them especially when child are being abused. Even humans who are told do nothing heroic or even kind a lot of the time.
So, your mom didn't work the steps she merely "did" the steps. Was she also a narcissist or merely manipulative?
no subject
Date: 2012-05-30 04:02 am (UTC)[ For the regular mythos. I'm a huge fan of Batman Beyond where the ancient and decrepit Bruce Wayne who can't be Batman any longer is befriended by Terry---- but it's like 2060, there are flying cars. ]
I think a lot of my hatred of Christianity comes from my mother. As far as I can see, most people claim to be Christians so they fit in easily, but they don't even bother going to church regularly, they don't live by the intended tenets (just the ones which allow them to lord their beliefs over other people), and then claim that no one who isn't Christian can criticize their faith while other Christians say that a shared faith in Christ is all is needed for "brotherhood". I think you should need to be demonstrably sorry when you screw up otherwise people shouldn't be expected to forgive. Catholics are supposed to do ritual atonements for even the most minor of sins (teenagers having lustful thoughts? come on. that's like being punished for breathing) But even though it's nominal punishment, there is at least lip service (usually literally) to the idea that forgiveness isn't automatic.
I don't know what's wrong with my mother other than she had a child she couldn't love during an era when married women were not expected (or even tolerated) in careers. But then she had another child and seemed to like him more, so maybe it was just me. Or maybe my inability to get along with other women is genetic and she liked my brother more because she was pretty sure he wasn't going to turn into a woman.
But I absolutely believe that anyone who told me I needed to forgive my mother for my own sake is a fool. I'd like her to have to say those ritualized prayers for a god she claims to worship, in a different language, for every undeserved punishment I got. Or, you know, offer to do something like that. "I know I hurt you through my bad behavior and poor decisions and I would like to earn your forgiveness."
Aquaman had telepathic communication with sea creatures and could swim. Kind of useless as a superhero if you didn't happen to be in the middle of the ocean on a stranded ship being attacked by a giant squid. He didn't seem to have a driver's license either, so he was always cadging rides from the other Superfriends. But he would have been bigger than my mom. We've all seen that crappy advice about how bullies can be stopped if you befriend them... but there used to be this advice that bullies were cowards and if you could best them once, they'd stop hurting you. So really, anyone would have done. But no superheroes showed up to rescue me....
and my mother said it was because no one would ever care enough about me to bother.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-30 08:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-31 01:31 am (UTC)I still think I deserved at least Aquaman. When your hero needs are so minimal that Aquaman would do, you should have been able to get sufficient help.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-31 01:53 am (UTC)